I have been asking around and it turns out I was wrong. The overwhelming majority of the children including the boys in chassidic schools do learn to read “Circle” and “Spotlight” magazines in English. Keeping youngsters away from things they shouldn’t see (on cellphones etc.) is something everyone of conscience whether or not they are part of a faith based community is grappling with. In terms of yeshiva educated children ending up looking at screens rather than excellent, kosher Jewish magazines in English, I was making assumptions based on a few things I’d heard and jumped to exaggerated and false conclusions about but not real research, asking people. What I wrote concerning general levels of reading in English was incorrect and not kosher communication. I truly apologize and will pray to be more careful in the future.

Clarification on resentment: Shakespeare (racist “Othello”, anti Jewish “The Merchant of Venice”) and essay writing has nothing to do with this discussion. Those are the problem of those in the cult of academia. Our children, parents, hanhalas, askanim etc. really need a boost so that there’a a sense of satisfaction and achievement in learning limdei kodesh and feeling of competency in basic literacy of spoken languages and arithmetic for mitzvoth and getting things done to elevate gashmius to ruchnius. As the Rebbe said about what has been going on to impede the success (and prompt so much pain and resentment) al pi Teva it’s “taxation without representation… tantamount to religious persecution”.

Would you consider joining me as I try to earnestly daven and bless askanim in a way that results in having salaries and benefits for enough highly skilled, not burnt out, principals, assistant principals, teachers, assistant teachers and secretaries etc. to work and continue working in chinuch as well as curriculum developers, program directors etc.? I’m not engaging in mind reading about what I imagine was extolled or not in homes.

Let’s work together. Tefilla makes all the difference, especially for Moshiach now which is surely all of our goal in line with the vision of Nosi Doreinu.

Who is this “RMMS” you are talking about?
It seems like you are referring to the Rebbe. But why dont you refer to him as such, instead of spelling out out his initials?
Secondly this article is written for that care about the Rebbe’s opinion, not those who anyways know better then the Rebbe. So what exactly is point of your long winded comment, to tell Chassidim to ignore their Rebbe’s stated opinion? That is preposterous.

Do give you the benefit of the doubt, you seem not to be aware of the platform you are writing on, and are not aware that this platform is to lay out the opinion of the Lubavitcher Rebbe to his Chassidim, and not to try to convince the rest of the world on this matter.

Being that as it may, you should do your homework before you write on specific platforms?

As “גברא אגברא קרמית” pointed out, the position of the Vilna Goan is basically irrelevant in this context.

Once it was brought up, however, id like to add something interesting about that.

It is well known that the Vilna Goan wrote a book on mathematics. What is probably less well known is that the contents of the book was studied and written only at times when learning Torah was prohibited (ie, during certain days, in certain impure places like bathrooms, stables, etc)

Even so, the Gra himself writes that having studied and written all the above sciences and wisdoms, he can attest that it is all a waste of time. I don’t remember the exact leshonos, but I believe he calls them “shtusim” and “empty” though I could be wrong about that.

So even if it was necessary to bring in the Gra’s opinion on the matter, let’s realize that he did not completely hold of learning limudei chol.

Interesting assessment. While I agree with a lot of what you wrote (Yeshivos being underpaid, public school kids not necessarily doing that great in basic subjects, etc), I do want to point out that the vast majority of CHILDREN in Jewish schools, both those that don’t teach any limudei chol and those that have a limited/under emphasised limudei chol track are not resentful of “missing out on basic skills”.
From what I see, both from when I was a student and from children today, most kids wouldn’t notice, think about, or be upset that they don’t know square roots/how to write a proper essay/never read Shakespeare etc etc if not for comments from the parents and other adults around them.
Those children that do feel, on their own, stymied at their lack of knowledge in limudei chol tend to be the minority and not the majority. And there are schools that cater to them, as mentioned in the above article.
Personally I feel that part of why parents are frustrated that their children do not learn to read and write English is because unfortunately today the spoken and written language is not yiddish. If you don’t speak or read yiddish fluently, it’s hard not read and write in English either. Families that speak in yiddish tend to be less insistant on learning the English language, and not only because of Chassidishkeit.

In this part 2 video clip Rabbi Yossi Paltiel why the Rebbe was adamantly opposed to the Gaon’s approach of Torah & science etc.. and negated college attendance/ secular studies. Part 1 is also very powerful.

https://youtu.be/4hDIh9eCD-I

The commenter is clearly ignorant of the position of Chabad (and Chassidus in general) and seeks to ask on it from other sources, which with all due respect don’t bind the Chabad Rebbeim.

In Tanya ch. 8, the Alter Rebbe clearly outlines the harm of secular studies on the intellect of the neshama. Only great people who can learn those subjects truly lsheim Shamayim.

The position of the Vilna Gaon is well known. Yet, it’s also known what happened to many of his students who went to study secular studies…

If you would really like to understand the Chabad position, I would reccomend you do your homework first.

For a better understanding of the Rebbe’s position, see at length in Shaarei Halach Uminhag, Vol. 3, p. 246.

First of all, secular education is mandated by NYS law. How could he take a position that violates Dina d’Malchusa Dina?

Secondly, secular knowledge is crucial to Torah knowledge. The following is from
The Debate Over Secular Studies Among the Disciples of the Vilna Gaon by B. Raphael Shuchat
The Torah U-Madda Journal , 1998-1999, Vol. 8 (1998-1999), pp. 283-294B. Raphael Shuchat
Source: The Torah U-Madda Journal , 1998-1999, Vol. 8 (1998-1999), pp. 283-294

The Vilna Gaon (Gra) saw value in the study of secular knowledge and made a point of educating himself in these fields. R. Israel of Shklov, the youngest of his disciples, writes: This is what he [the Gra] said, “All knowledge is necessary for our holy Torah and is contained therein.” He knew them all thoroughly and mentioned them; the wisdom of algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and music which he greatly praised. He used to say then that most of the inner meanings of Torah and the secrets of the Levites’ songs and the secrets of Tikunei Zohar cannot be understood with- out this [knowledge of music]. . . . Only concerning medicine [did he limit his study thereof]. He knew human anatomy and all things relevant to it, but concerning the composition and prescription of medicines, which he wanted to learn from contemporary physicians, his saintly father commanded him not to study it so as not to diminish his Torah study in case he might have to save lives . . . and of the wisdom of philosophy he said that he had studied it thoroughly.”

and

Despite studying philosophy “thoroughly”, the Gra had a negative attitude toward it; this, however, was not the case with the sciences in which he showed great interest. It was this love for sciences which motivated him to write an essay on geometry trigonometry called Ayil Meshulash, an unusual act considering he wrote nothing else in book form.5 A further proof of the positive attitude toward the sciences can be found in the introduction to R. Baruch Shick of Shklov’s translation of Euclid’s geometry. tells the following story: When I was in the holy and grand community of Vilna, by Rabbi, that great light, the great Gaon, my master and teacher, illuminator of the exile, the well-known saint, our honorable teacher Elijah, may God guard and protect him, in 5538 [=1778], I heard from his holy mouth that to the extent that one lacks in knowledge of other wisdom, he will lack one hundred fold in Torah know- ledge, for Torah and [general] knowledge are linked to one another . . . and he commanded me to copy into our holy language whatever is possible from general knowledge.

R. Yhonason Eybeschutz in Yaaros Devash 2:7 (as translated by L. Levi in Torah and Science pages 24-25) writes:
For all the sciences are “condiments” and are necessary for our Torah, such as the science of mathematics, which is the science of measurements and includes the science of numbers, geometry, and algebra and is very essential for the measurements required in connection with the Eglah Arufah and the cities of the Levites and the cities of refuge as well as the Sabbath boundaries of our cities. The science of weights [i.e., mechanics] is necessary for the judiciary, to scrutinize in detail whether scales are used honestly or fraudulently. The science of vision [optics] is necessary for the Sanhedrin to clarify the deceits perpetrated by idolatrous priests; furthermore, the need for this science is great in connection with examining witnesses, who claim they stood at a distance and saw the scene, to determine whether the arc of vision extends so far straight or bent. The science of astronomy is a science of the Jews, the secret of leap years to know the paths of the constellations and to sanctify the new moon. The science of nature which includes the science of medicine in general is very important for distinguishing the blood of theNiddah whether it is pure or impure … and how much more is it necessary when one strikes his fellow man in order to ascertain whether the blow was mortal, and if he died whether he died because of it, and for what disease one may desecrate the Sabbath. Regarding botany, how great is the power of the Sages in connection with kilayim [mixed crops]! Here too we may mention zoology, to know which animals may be hybridized; and chemistry, which is important in connection with the metals used in the tabernacle, etc.

(It is worth noting that similar lists may be found in R. Abraham Ibn Ezra’s introduction to Chibbur Hameshicha Vehatishbores and R. Bachya’s commentary on Avos, end of Chapter 3.)

Dare one suggest that RMMS was unaware of all of the above, because if he were, then how could he hold the position on secular studies outlined in this article?

Professor Yitzchok Levine

Yes, if a child is reasonably proficient in Yiddish/Hebrew, and can read/write in that language it is ok if he speaks English “mit a Yiddishe aktzent”.

However, today that is rarely the case. Kids aren’t usually exposed to languages other than English, at least not enough to master them. Therefore, it is absolutely necessary to teach English, so that they are reasonably competent in one language (their spoken one).

There’s no need for kids to be illiterate in three languages…

The Mishe is Pirkey Avos 5:21 (that we learned this past shabbos) says that as Jews we must always learn and toil in Torah for everything in the world is in it; look deeply into it; grow old and gray over it, for there is nothing more edifying for you than it.

The same would apply to reading and writing the basics in English to get by. Yossi Paltiel grew up without knowing how to read and write English and nevertheless today is one of the most prolific, proficient and erudite speakers in Chabad worldwide!

about english:
1: in the sicha of simchas torah 5715 the Rebbe includes learning the english language as limmudei chol, and the words “english” and “grammer” are the main “targets” of the sicha.
so much so that the Rebbe says that the child should ask for a street name with a “yiddishe aktzent”

2: ohlei torah had horaos from the Rebbe on every part of their curriculum, so the fact that they dont have english means that the Rebbe doesnt want it to be taught.

here are a few qoutes from the sicha of simchas torah 5715 that address the above: (from toras menachem):

חוששים שמא ילך הילד ברחוב, וכשיצטרך לשאול מישהו למקומו של רחוב מסויים – ידבר באנגלית עם “מבטא יהודי” (“אַ אידישן אַקצענט”)… ויהי’ ניכר שהוא יהודי!… ולכן לומדים עמו “אנגלית”, ושאר חכמות חיצוניות, כדי לטמא את מוחו של הילד!

– ג’ השנים הראשונות שבהם מתחיל הילד ללמוד, הם הזמן שהוא היסוד העיקרי להצלחתו בעתיד. ודוקא בזמן זה לוקחים את הילד ומטמאים את מוחו ב”אנגלית”, “גראַמאַטיקע” וכיו”ב!

הלואי שגם גדולים לא היו יודעים ענינים אלו! ועאכו”כ ילדים – עד תשע שנים, עד י”ב שנה – והייתי אומר גם לגבי השנים הבאות, אלא ש”תפסת מרובה לא תפסת”!…

בה בשעה שהקב”ה אומר שאינו זקוק ל”גן עדן”, אינו זקוק לביהמ”ק, ואינו רוצה דבר, מלבד הענין ד”ושכנתי בתוכם”, דהיינו שרצונו של הקב”ה לשכון דוקא במוחו של ילד יהודי – לוקחים מוח זה ומטמאים אותו בחכמות חיצוניות!
—–
היכן היא הגאוה היהודית (“וואו איז דער אידישער שטאָלץ”)?!

מה שטוענים, שכאשר ילמדו את הילד “אנגלית” וכו’, אזי תהי’ לו תועלת בגשמיות, שיהי’ לו קל יותר “להסתדר” בחיים – הרי זו טענה שאין לה מקום כלל, שהרי אף אחד אינו “יודע עתידות”; ובכל ההנהגות יש להתנהג ע”פ תורה.

כל דבר שיש בו תועלת – נכתב בתורה, ואילו היתה תועלת כלשהי בגשמיות בלימוד חכמות חיצוניות – הי’ צ”ל דין בתורה שצריכים ללמוד חכמות חיצוניות. ומכיון שאין בתורה דין שכזה – ואדרבה: מפורש בתורה שהדבר אסור, ושעי”ז מטמאים חב”ד שבנפש – פירוש הדבר הוא שאין בזה שום תועלת בגשמיות, ואדרבה!

הם חושבים שיוכלו להתחכם על הקב”ה (“מען וועט גיין איבערקליגן דעם אויבערשטן”), היינו, שלא יתחשבו בדרכים שהקב”ה נתן בתורתו כדי להצליח, אלא יחפשו דרכים משלהם, ללמוד “אנגלית”, ועי”ז להצליח. – ובכן: עליהם לזכור, שהקב”ה ברא את העולם לפני חמשת אלפים שבע מאות וארבע-עשרה שנים, ומאז מנהיג אותו תמיד כרצונו, וגם להבא ימשיך להנהיג את העולם בהתאם לרצונו – ע”פ תורה.

הקב”ה נתן לבני ישראל את התורה כבר לפני למעלה משלושת אלפים שנה, ומאז, רואים אנו שהעם ה”בטלן”, שאינו לומד “דקדוק” וכו’ – עומד איתן (“האַלט זיך שטאַרק”)!
—-
ואעפ”כ, באים הורים וגוזלים שנים תמימות מילדיהם, חלק מחייהם של הילדים!
—
באיזו זכות באים הורים וגוזלים מהילדים את ימיהם?! האם לשם כך נתן הקב”ה ילדים, כדי שההורים יקחו מהם את חייהם?!…

וכי משום שיש לו יצר הרע, ואינו יכול “להסתדר” עמו (“קאָן זיך ניט איינקערן מיט אים”) – עליו להטיל זאת על ראשם ועל ימי חייהם של הילדים?!…

In the public school I went to, many years ago, arithmetic was completely different than “Social Studies”. Arithmetic has addition and subtraction facts, multiplication tables, order of operations, measuring, weighing etc. It was such an objective set of facts and way of important life-skill building that it couldn’t be left alone.

Years later it was corrupted with “common core”. Even in non faith based communities, whoever cares despairs about that. So we shouldn’t take in the curriculum, but we do need to make sure children can do basic math (which is not happening in the non yeshiva schools with common core and was always hard for some to teach and learn).

I think schools have found a way to move away from common core to some extent, but the damage has been done to a lot of kids (I mean in non yeshiva schools where the amount of failure, anxiety, innumeracy and cheating is through the roof, sadly. And our girls schools, and yeshivas who followed that curriculum were so very burdened by the common core imposition as well).

Arithmetic in it’s non corrupted form is basically not in the clouds academic. It’s factual with practical, doable applications. Try putting fourteen cups of sugar into a recipe instead of 1/4 of a cup of sugar because one didn’t have a basic math and reading education… Most cookbooks are not written in Yiddish and even then one needs to be able to read the math 1/4. Social studies and secular literature take quite a stretch of the imagination to call useful, factual, neutral, etc. Math is essential for Halacha and getting stuff actually done, both mitzvoth and preparation for mitzvoth.

Almost all secular studies could be used to serve Hashem, but still the Rebbe was against teaching it to young children. Only that which is IMMEDIATELY relevant to his avodas Hashem at the current time, should be taught.

Anything else, while it can be elevated later (as the Alter Rebbe writes about physical things), right now it is perceived as something unG-dly and will blunt the child’s exclusive connection to Hashem.

When you read the sources and understand what “chochmos chitzoniyus” is about, it becomes clear that the issue is about engaging the mind in something away from Hashem.

When a person learns to tie their shoes with the correct mindset, he doesn’t feel like he is disconnecting from avodas Hashem, rather he is learning mundane information that will help him serve Hashem better.

Of course, a person can fool himself and argue that every study of secular subjects could be used for avodas Hashem. But an honest person can know what is truly for Hashem and what is just an excuse.

Using that argument, you can excuse any secular education

Proficiency in arithmetic with number facts is important too. It’s essential in Kashrus, cooking, baking challah, Shabbos and yomtov and family life awareness and accuracy for time and calendars; and cooking and buying and renovating a home or shul, buying and doing alterations for Tsnius clothing etc.

Our schools are struggling in spite of tremendous efforts. And much of the effort is in fundraising. How does the building mortgage and heat get paid? To say nothing of teacher and staff salaries— and retirement benefits are non existent. We literally don’t have the resources that the other type of parochial school, private schools, and public schools have (the latter doesn’t have the heart and “soul” in spite of receiving vast amount of tax payer money). Our children really resent their Jewish education that, without the proper resources, overall doesn’t operate optimally— it’s astounding how often children don’t even have a place in a Jewish school whereas they’d be valued students in public school. I know. I’ve been there. Meanwhile our yeshiva students feel deprived of basic literacy and math proficiency.

The truth is, those not in the yeshiva system often don’t even achieve success in that. But our children can sometimes experience lack of English reading, writing and arithmetic with resentment. And it came back to bite us when they can’t read “Circle” and “Spotlight” Jewish children’s magazines but they can watch a lot of things on devices that we don’t know how to parent ally control properly because we’re not from the tech age. Reading, writing and arithmetic skills from a young age is important. However, the content areas of the secular curriculums can and should be avoided for chinuch al Taharas hakodesh.

2) the story of Reb Mendel Futerfas is one of him collecting for a similarly named school in eretz Yisroel, but not the Oholei Torah from New York

3) is there a collection somewhere of the Rebbe’s position in girls’ chinuch? Why does this entire article not apply to them?

Why do you assume that proficiency in a spoken language is a form of secular studies? What’s the source for that?

Thank you for such a well written article with sources!
I had the same question about English, thanks for asking it, a source for that would be appreciated.

Can a source be provided for this as well?